Marwan Kamel is full of
contradictions. Opinionated yet relaxed, a punk rock puritan who
experiments with the sacred cows of punk. His father is Algerian,
but lived in Syria before coming to the US and his mother is Mexican.
Growing up in the rust belt city of Waukegan north of Chicago, Kamel
has been a strong voice in the 'Taqwacore' movement, a movement built
by Arab and Muslim Punk Rockers.
I attended college with
Marwan, where we would often discuss internationalizing anarchism and
anarchist ideas. I remember one conversation we had about the
international symbol of Anarchy, the cirlce A, being eurocentric,
becuase it didn't exactly carry over into non-latin based languages.
On New Years Eve 2009, I met
Marwan for Coffee and to discuss music, politics, and the band that
he sings and plays guitar in: Al Thawra. As we see, Marwan is
interested in more than a punk aesthetic, or touting mindless chaos
as anarchism, or music that gives people a little chuckle. He is
interested in music that goes beyond a quirky oddity, and becomes a
a real threat to the dominant order
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| Marwan discusses Al Thawra. |
Matt: A couple of our
friends are on the Palestine freedom march.
Marwan: They're going to
Gaza?
Matt: Trying to. They're
stuck in Egypt.
Marwan: It's funny cause
all that international crossing is so much more complicated. The one
thing with the Middle East is that everything is more complicated.
Something that should take like 20 minutes takes 4 fucking hours
cause of all the complicated political situations and shit. A friend
of mine came to the us from Palestine. He was 19 years old. Like 2
years ago. The visa to get the us was easier to get than the visa to
Jordan. Going to Jordan is the hard part. Getting to the US is the
easy part. They give visas to the Palestinians easier than anybody
else cause they just want to get them out. Just leave.
Matt: I saw last night that
Al Thawra posted a new song on Myspace about the Seige of Gaza.
Marwan: Yea and this morning
I got hate mail.
Matt: What did it say?
Marwan: It said, 'Burn Gaza
to the ground.'
Matt: Was it from someone
who had been a fan of the band or just some random dude?
Marwan: Dude, I don't even
know. Just some person sent em a message..... it was like.... I
don't know man. The one thing I've noticed about our stuff vs... I
hate to play this race to the bottom... like I'm more impressive than
you or whatever, when it comes to, like, vs. the kominas or these
other Taqwacore bands, or supposed Taqwacore bands, I've noticed with
us, we always end up catching the heat from these other bands.
Like the Komina's are lighthearted and funny about it. I look at it
like the Sex Pistols vs. Crass, y'know? They're like the more fun
pop aspect of it, being sarcastic.
I've noticed like, in some
ways being South Asian is like daisy or whatever is like a little bit
more politically friendly, cause their Pakistani. But when your
Arab, everyone fucking hates you. It's like being the public enemy
of this current, I don't know what to call it. Status quo in the US.
It seems like with us we're
under a different paradigm. It's like, oh, they're being serious,
their talking in Arabic. Fuck them.
Matt: I haven't listened to
many of the other Taqwacore bands. I know you guy's cause I know
you. I've read a few articles about the other groups cause you went
on tour with them. A group like Vote Hezbollah, are they a little
more jokey?
Marwan: Yea it's all a
joke. I think that's the difference. When you want to be serious,
it's more threatening to people. I'm not really sure. I kinda fell
into the whole Taqwacore thing anyways. I didn't set out to create a
Taqwacore band. It just happened. I put my music on Myspace and
these dudes found me on there. And they sent me the book and the
idea of a tour came up. So I wasn't sure where I fit in with the
whole thing. I still really don't know where I fit in with it.
Matt: you wanted to create a
Doom / Crust band and everyone says, 'oh, you're like this', and your
like 'I am?'
Marwan: Yea exactly. It's
kinda like you end up wanting to create something, and someone else
labels it. Which is what ultimately happens with any group.
Matt: You mentioned earlier
that your writing for a blog about Palestine?
Marwan: Oh yea. That's
something I'm just starting up. So I'm not sure what my angle is.
It's called palestinenote.com. I'm also writing for
mideastyouth.com. The palestinenote.com one seems real serious.
Matt: Are these site you
started yourself or....?
Marwan: No I'm
contributing. So much of my writing is not that serious in a
journalistic sense. I ended up interviewing a band in Syria because
it interested me. I wanted to talk to them, so I was like, 'fuck it,
lets do an interview.' But this site seems serious some of their
writers are dudes who have written for the New York Times and shit.
I asked Marwan about the
documentary movie about the Taqwacore scene, "Taqwacore: the
Birth of Punk Islam." The movie featured Al Thawra.
Marwan: It's all bullshit.
Documentaries are like half fiction. One of the things I noticed
especially when we were working on that films: 'Ok, that was great,
but can you guys do that again in the light?' 'What? I thought this
was a documentary?'
Matt: All the great historic
photos were posed. Iwa Jima, the Red flag over the Reichstag.
Matt: Tell me about when the
film crews became interested in filming you guys. Have you seen it
yet?
Marwan: Yea, I saw the
documentary. It's interesting because .... I don't know if the film
maker, Omar Majeed, set out to make a definitive piece on this
movement. I don't know if it was supposed to be encyclopedic in some
sort of way. I don't think so. In terms of being a narrative, it's
a good narrative. But I don't think it does justice to the story of
all the bands that were involved. I'm not saying that necessarily I
want to see more of myself... but it seemed like... instead of the
same 500 word article that they keep printing over and over and over
again. It ended up being an hour and ½ article. Like one of those
articles, like the Rolling Stone piece.
The camera crews started
coming, in like 2007. I was talking to these dudes online and the
idea of a tour came up. I bought a ticket to Boston, one way. I
didn't fuckin' know these kids or nothing, I was just diving into it
blindly. I had no idea who was even going to pick me up from the
airport. The first thing that happens is we pull into Bossum's
driveway, and we had to stage it again, like 4 times before we got it
right. So that was my first experience with a camera crew. I was
like 'what is going on?'
Matt: You mentioned some of
the other articles and they are all sort of the same. They treat it
as a novelty. “Oh look at all these Arab kids playing punk music.”
I feel like they aren't digging any deeper than that. You told me
on the phone that maybe there wasn't anything deeper than that.
But... I feel like there is some sort of consciousness shift going
on.
Marwan: In America?
Matt: Well, with this quote
unquote Taqwacore. I remember I went to an United Muslims Moving
Ahead event at DePaul once. I was playing my guitar in the quad, so
I brought that with. And some guys were like you should go up there
with the hand drum guy, do a little thing. I was like 'Ok, I wasn't
planning on it, but sure.' We talk to the organizer of the event and
– oh! apparently there's some prohibition in the...
Marwan: Dude that's fucking
retarded.
Matt: against stringed
instruments
Marwan: Dude, that's the
biggest bullshit I ever fuckin' heard.
Marwan: It's weird that
these innovations of theology and ideology from the 1700's have
infiltrated so deep into the consciousness of Muslims that its like
created this idea that it's always existed like that. Part of the
reason why that coverage [of Taqwacore] always ends up being the same
is cause that type of Islam is the monolithic Islam that the media in
the US projects. In some sort of way, there is an Orientalist tinge
in everything they write about us. It returns to the original
exotification of the East. It treats us like clowns. Like, 'how
weird.' What they don't understand is that there have always been
critics like that.
There was one group in
Arabia in the 8th century the Najdiyah,they formed a
commune-like society. Their theological position was that is there
is no one able to become the Imam, then we can do away with the
position completely. And they also said that the land belongs to
everyone. It's sort of a forerunner to socialist ideas.
What they don't understand
is that those type of criticisms have always existed. Out of that
same movement was a group that supported women as imams.
Matt: You had mentioned to
me a few years ago that you wanted to write a book on these
Anthropological type things. Precursors, stuff embedded within Arab
history and culture that could be the basis for a non-European
socialism. Like how socialist and anarchist ideas have always been
said to have come out of European struggles, but maybe not. Did you
ever actually write that, did you do research, what's the status?
Marwan: I started. I lost
touch with it. It's like that sometimes. You know you start
something and lose your train of thought. What's interesting is that
some kid started that. I forget his name though.
Matt: You ever think about
going back to grad school to continue on a project like that?
Marwan: I don't know dude,
but I need to go back to school for sure though.
It's interesting to
juxtapose the paradigm of Western society. If you look at us on a
different historical trajectory than the Middle East. So you have to
make it relevant and indigenous to Mid-East culture. One reason why
they don't work is that they are viewed as outside ideas. In some
sort of way it needs to speak to people. If you think about it, a
lot of the ideology, like anarcho-syndicalism, it's dealing with
industrial society, but a lot of those societies in the Mid-East
aren't even industrialized yet. It's totally different It's like
Russia at the time of the revolution,
Matt: or like China, it was
mostly peasants at the time of the revolution.
Marwan: but then there is
the ultra fucking capitalism of the gulf.
Matt: Like the United Arab
Emirates. Building man made islands in the shape of a globe so Brad
Pitt can buy one.
 |
| Marwan discusses his music. |
Marwan: Like when they talk
about decadence, that's fucking decadence. That's just ridiculous.
People don't identify with that. Everyone else in the Mid-East don't
have any sort of cultural similarity with them. It's so different.
'everything is for sale.'
Matt: I saw you guys play a
show at Boogie Not Bombs and one of the things I liked about your set
was how in your last song you brought all those drums and gave them
out to the audience. Is that something you do regularly, where you
try to make it more interactive?
Marwan: Yea that was fun.
The traditional concept of shows is that you go and watch someone
perform. But you own it more if you get people involved. 'Oh, it's
my show too.' It democratizes the show. It takes it off the stage
and puts it in the hands of people. It's analogous with political
concepts. One of the interesting things about how we fuse music is
how Mid-East music is based a lot on improvisation. So that ties it
with the democratization thing to. Leave the format open for people
to put their own muse into. So we try to do that as often as we can
but sometimes we don't have enough drums. It's a good way to end
sets. Cause then you don't need to have an ending that lets people
down, cause they will just have fun anyway. Ultimately that's what
shows are about, having fun.
Matt: Most of the time,
Marwan: Unless it's about
PC posturing. Making people feel bad about doing shit. 'It's your
fault.'
The only time I did that was
in New York. It wasn't even politically motivated, it was cause I
hate New York. I was just trying to piss them off.
Matt: Would you say there
is a rust belt twinge to the group?
Marwan: Post-modern
post-industrial deal? Yea. That's the cool thing about Chicago.
Even the punk hardcore in the 80's it tended to be more experimental
cause it wasn't tied down to these things on the east coast.
We go outside for a smoke
Marwan: Going back to
talking about Taqwacore being threatening. These articles love to
see people shit on Islam, but not on the West as well. If your not
being honest about everything, your not being honest. You have to be
self-critical.
Matt: Al Thawra does
criticize both. You don't fall into Christopher Hitchen's paradigm.
The liberal hawk. "Oh Islam needs it's own enlightenment. They
need to accept Western values. That's why we need to invade. Make
them look like us. Give them McDonalds.” A group like Al Thawra
is a counter argument to that. "We don't need you to bomb the Mid-East to give us your supposed freedom. We know how to make
freedom ourselves."
Marwan: Absolutely. Like I
said, those criticisms have always existed. There is nothing new
about it. People don't know how big Islam is. They have this one
monolithic image of it. It seems a lot of those bands play into
that. It seems less threatening. It seems more of a marketing ploy
than anything else.
Matt: What do you think of
all these protesters in Iran? Or as I call them the twitteratti? Do
you think they have a liberatory vision for Iran after they topple
the theocracy or are they pro-western?
Marwan: I don't know how
much of it is genuine democratic feelings or peoples uprising or how
much is involvement of foreign organization.
Matt: It's kinda hard to
tell.
Marwan: That's one of the
things about those covert ops. It's all about hiding it. Make it
look like a people's uprising but maybe its with the support of the
CIA or MI5. Of course I support that movement of people but I don't
know if I want to be outright supporting it. Cause, I don't know
whats genuine about it. Is it a liberatory vision? I don't know.
If it's a ploy to end up with a McDonalds in Teran they might as well
stop right now. You'll just end up with a different tyrant.
One of the thing about the
manipulation of public opinion here is that the people who supported
the Shah are supporting the protesters. One of the Shahs relatives
gave a press conference in Paris during the riots after the election
where he was crying for that girl who died. I was like, 'yea right
he doesn't care about that girl.' He was like, 'just put me back in
power.'
Matt: This last decade
there has been this big interest in ethnic punk. Gypsy punk.
Recognition of Latino punk groups in Pilsen, movie Behind the
Screams, the movie Afro-Punk, now this movie about Taqwacore. There
has always been this non-white punk, but it's getting its own
recognition and the mainstream is acknowledging that it exists in
ways that it hasn't before. Any thoughts?
Marwan: It's about musical
progression. Do you want it to be the same or move on. I hope it
doesn't become a tokenizng thing. That's denigrating in a lot of
ways. 'Hey man we're not racist we have a black friend.'
Matt: Punks not racist, we
have Bad Brains.
Marwan: haha yea. That's
what I'm saying. It goes back to making it indigenous to your
cultural context in some way.
Matt: There are two ways to
spin this question- why is punk rock so attractive to these
marginalized communities? Or do you feel like picking up the western
rock sound and prototype for a band and adapting it to these
different communities... is this just a different kind of
assimilation?
Marwan: Yea the
assimilation aspect is always played into this in an interesting way
for me. How do you negotiate assimilation and your identity? I
found interesting in Taqwacore that we weren't coming form the same
cultural context, but we identified with each other. Having this
identity conflict out in the open. You feel neither here nor there.
Our context might be different than Afro-punk but I think it has a
lot in common with Latino punk. Your here but your not quite
American. But when your there, your fucking American. If I'm here
in the US, who is the first person picked at the airport for a
special screening? Me. But when I'm there, their like, 'oh he's
American.'
Matt: I remember you told
me once about how when you visited Syria the secret police were
following you.
Marwan: That;s a totally
different topic man. The secret police in Syria... it's interesting.
There was one journalist from France who covered us. A war
photographer correspondent, he had been to North Korea and Cuba and
he said, 'it's the only country I stayed in where there are police in
front and behind you.' It's insane, the state security apparatus is
on top of dissent. It think it's opening up some. When I was
interviewing that band in Syria. They said they are more computers
now but it hasn't improved much. I think it's being censored or
their keeping tabs on people.
Matt: You always read
reports about 'the great firewall of china' and how all these country
have censorship blocking stuff. I go on youtube and watch newsclips,
and some say 'this is not available in your region.' Not even from
some 'terrorist state'. Stuff from England, but it's like copyright,
trademark, what's the difference? It's a censorship based on profit.
Marwan: Yea it's a different
type of censorship. That's one of the reasons I haven't been pissed
off about how the media has been covering this Taqwacore thing.
Because that sensationalism plays into that aspect of creating
profit. They have to make it sensational. I understand it, I don't
think it's right, but they're covering us in this way because their
motivation is profit.
Marwan: Going back to
identity punk thing... it's poignant now to have these identity punk
movements because it has something to do with the faceless globalized
world. Finding out who you are and maintaining your identity is
important in that kind of thing. To break the homogeneity of that
kind of world. Your either a soldier in their army or a faceless
sweatshop worker. Just to be like 'no, I exist' is really important.
Matt: Al Thawra is the
cultural and artistic face.
Marwan: One of the things
were trying to do with Al Thawra is that our process, at first we
took punk and put mid-east on top. This new album is the reverse.
You get a different result.
Throughout this experience,
there has been these magazine articles, but the one thing I have been
going back to is how I originally started doing things in the 'Do It
Yourself' fashion. I started getting in contact with these kids in
the Mid-East. Their motivations for feeling different are different
than mine. They can feel like outsiders and identify with that in
some sense. There are always some people feeling marginalized or
different everywhere. Rock music isn't that prevalent in the
Mid-East yet, so it takes someone to do it, for it to take root.
Matt: There are two sides
to rock music. On one hand they credit Levi jeans and rock music to
toppling the Soviet Union. On the other hand this is a music that
has its roots in the blues and the African American experience. It's
a double edged sword maybe.
Marwan: Rock music is a
cultural ambassador. It plays into that dialectics. It some ways
it's Westernized, but in some it's trying to be Eastern. I hate to
use those terms but just for the sake of understanding. It's
bringing this music that foreign but it's gives people a space to
empower themselves. So it's a dialectical process. Your using that
kind of ascetic to empower yourself to do something.
Matt: Dialectics,
contradictions, shades of gray...
Marwan: To say that we
exist in the gray, and we're OK with it is one of the most important
things about our music. We don't fit here or there but it's alright,
we are who we are.
